Legislature(1997 - 1998)
04/30/1998 01:30 PM House RES
| Audio | Topic |
|---|
* first hearing in first committee of referral
+ teleconferenced
= bill was previously heard/scheduled
+ teleconferenced
= bill was previously heard/scheduled
HOUSE RESOURCES STANDING COMMITTEE
April 30, 1998
1:30 p.m.
MEMBERS PRESENT
Representative Bill Hudson, Co-Chairman
Representative Scott Ogan, Co-Chairman
Representative Beverly Masek, Vice Chair
Representative Ramona Barnes
Representative Fred Dyson
Representative Joe Green
Representative William K. (Bill) Williams
Representative Irene Nicholia
MEMBERS ABSENT
Representative Reggie Joule
COMMITTEE CALENDAR
HOUSE BILL NO. 274
"An Act relating to the qualifications of the members of the Alaska
Oil and Gas Conservation Commission; and providing for an effective
date."
- MOVED CSHB 274(RES) OUT OF COMMITTEE
HOUSE CONCURRENT RESOLUTION NO. 13
Relating to management of Alaska's wildlife resources.
- MOVED CSHCR 13(RES) OUT OF COMMITTEE
COMMITTEE SUBSTITUTE FOR SENATE BILL NO. 262(RES)
"An Act relating to regulation of hunting and trapping, to the
definition of 'sustained yield,' and to controlled use areas."
- MOVED HCS CSSB 262(RES) OUT OF COMMITTEE
HOUSE BILL NO. 440
"An Act relating to certain audits regarding oil and gas royalty
and net profits and to audits regarding costs relating to
exploration incentive credits and oil and gas exploration licenses;
and providing for an effective date."
- SCHEDULED BUT NOT HEARD
(* First public hearing)
PREVIOUS ACTION
BILL: HB 274
SHORT TITLE: OIL & GAS CONSERVATION COMMISSION
SPONSOR(S): REPRESENTATIVES(S) GREEN
Jrn-Date Jrn-Page Action
5/08/97 1656 (H) READ THE FIRST TIME - REFERRAL(S)
5/08/97 1656 (H) O&G, RES
1/15/98 (H) O&G AT 10:00 AM CAPITOL 124
1/15/98 (H) MINUTE(O&G)
1/22/98 (H) O&G AT 11:00 AM CAPITOL 124
1/22/98 (H) MINUTE(O&G)
2/05/98 (H) O&G AT 10:00 AM CAPITOL 124
2/05/98 (H) MINUTE(O&G)
2/12/98 (H) O&G AT 11:00 AM CAPITOL 124
2/12/98 (H) MINUTE(O&G)
2/20/98 2382 (H) O&G RPT CS(O&G) 3DP 4NR
2/20/98 2383 (H) DP: BUNDE, HODGINS, ROKEBERG;
2/20/98 2383 (H) NR: KEMPLEN, RYAN, OGAN, BRICE
2/20/98 2383 (H) ZERO FISCAL NOTE (H.O&G)
2/20/98 2383 (H) REFERRED TO RES
3/10/98 (H) RES AT 1:00 PM CAPITOL 124
3/10/98 (H) MINUTE(RES)
4/22/98 (H) RES AT 5:00 PM CAPITOL 408
4/22/98 (H) MINUTE(RES)
BILL: HCR 13
SHORT TITLE: MANAGEMENT OF WILDLIFE RESOURCES
SPONSOR(S): REPRESENTATIVES(S) VEZEY, Ryan, Ogan, Therriault,
James, Bunde
Jrn-Date Jrn-Page Action
2/24/97 441 (H) READ THE FIRST TIME - REFERRAL(S)
2/24/97 441 (H) RESOURCES
3/05/97 549 (H) COSPONSOR(S): JAMES
3/12/97 647 (H) COSPONSOR(S): BUNDE
4/30/98 (H) RES AT 1:00 PM CAPITOL 124
BILL: SB 262
SHORT TITLE: MANAGEMENT OF HUNTING
SPONSOR(S): SENATOR(S) TAYLOR
Jrn-Date Jrn-Page Action
1/27/98 2318 (S) READ THE FIRST TIME - REFERRAL(S)
1/27/98 2318 (S) RESOURCES
2/23/98 (S) RES AT 3:30 PM BUTROVICH ROOM 205
2/23/98 (S) MINUTE(RES)
3/23/98 (S) RES AT 3:30 PM BUTROVICH ROOM 205
3/23/98 (S) MINUTE(RES)
3/24/98 (S) RLS AT 11:45 AM FAHRENKAMP RM 203
3/24/98 (S) MINUTE(RLS)
3/24/98 2969 (S) RES RPT CS 5DP 1DNP NEW TITLE
3/24/98 2970 (S) DP: HALFORD, TAYLOR, SHARP, GREEN,
3/24/98 2970 (S) TORGERSON; DNP: LINCOLN
3/24/98 2970 (S) ZERO FISCAL NOTE TO SB & CS (F&G)
4/01/98 3092 (S) RULES TO CALENDAR 4/1/98
4/01/98 3092 (S) READ THE SECOND TIME
4/01/98 3093 (S) RES CS ADOPTED UNAN CONSENT
4/01/98 3093 (S) ADVANCED TO THIRD READING UNAN
CONSENT
4/01/98 3093 (S) READ THE THIRD TIME CSSB 262(RES)
4/01/98 3093 (S) PASSED Y14 N6
4/01/98 3093 (S) ELLIS NOTICE OF RECONSIDERATION
4/02/98 3117 (S) RECONSIDERATION NOT TAKEN UP
4/02/98 3117 (S) TRANSMITTED TO (H)
4/03/98 2865 (H) READ THE FIRST TIME - REFERRAL(S)
4/03/98 2865 (H) RESOURCES, FINANCE
4/14/98 (H) RES AT 5:00 PM CAPITOL 124
4/14/98 (H) MINUTE(RES)
4/23/98 (H) RES AT 1:00 PM CAPITOL 124
4/23/98 (H) MINUTE(RES)
4/30/98 (H) RES AT 1:00 PM CAPITOL 124
WITNESS REGISTER
No witness register
ACTION NARRATIVE
TAPE 98-53, SIDE A
Number 001
CO-CHAIRMAN SCOTT OGAN called the House Resources Standing
Committee meeting to order at 1:30 p.m. Members present at the
call to order were Representatives Ogan, Dyson, Barnes, Green and
Hudson. Representatives Williams and Masek arrived at 1:31 p.m.
and 1:35 p.m., respectively. Representative Nicholia arrived
sometime after the call to order.
[MOST OF REPRESENTATIVE NICHOLIA'S TESTIMONY IS INAUDIBLE]
HB 274 - OIL & GAS CONSERVATION COMMISSION
CO-CHAIRMAN OGAN called on Representative Ramona Barnes to present
the report on HB 274 from the subcommittee.
Number 016
REPRESENTATIVE RAMONA BARNES stated the subcommittee has done
extensive work on HB 274. She reported Howard Grey of Anchorage
and past president of the Professional Geologist Association (PGA)
was contacted at the suggestion of Leo Mark Anthony regarding the
petroleum geologists in Alaska. He explained that there are
between 130 and 140 American Institute of Professional Geologists
(AIPG) members in Alaska who are registered with PGA. He further
explained that the number could be doubled because there are
between 130 and 140 geologists working in Alaska who have not
registered with the association, but would otherwise probably
qualify. He also estimated that of the 300 to 400 geologists in
Alaska probably 100 are involved in some way with the oil industry
and who may qualify under the bill to become a member of the Alaska
Oil and Gas Conservation Commission. Mr. Grey upon receipt of the
proposed committee substitute said that the changes to the existing
law were fine and that it was a valid idea to replace the term
"professional" with the term "petroleum" and cited arguments
presented by Representative Joe Green that licensure is not
mandatory to work within the industry in Alaska. When asked
whether he thought the changes to the law would affect the size of
the pool of applicants, he replied yes it was probable. However,
he felt that the wording of the bill would likely ratchet up the
quality of individuals making up the pool. The changes would give
access to a greater number of individuals who would be more certain
to qualify as members of the commission. In addition, defining the
qualified geologist as a "petroleum geologist" would also help
ensure well-qualified individuals for the commission. To use his
words, he said it probably would result in ... "A pretty good field
to draw from."
REPRESENTATIVE BARNES further stated that Mr. Leo Mark Anthony of
Anchorage did not recall specific numbers, but noted there are many
registered geologists in Alaska. He also pointed out that AIPG is
the primary qualifier. It provides qualified applicants with a
certificate and the state provides registration upon the
presentation of the AIPG certificate and the required money. Mr.
Anthony suggested when seeking applicants for the commission one
should probably look for qualified, registered geologists within
the petroleum industry who have at least 10 years of experience.
The experience would be necessary to assure a knowledgeable
applicant.
REPRESENTATIVE BARNES further stated that Catherine Reardon,
Director of Occupational Licensing, Department of Commerce,
explained the registration process under AS 08.02.011. She stated
registration is voluntary in Alaska and there is no renewal
process. The problem is that few other states do it like Alaska
resulting in many geologists from other states applying and
obtaining registration in Alaska. Of the about 400 geologists
listed as registered, she estimates that only half live and work in
Alaska. A similar problem exists when attempting to tabulate the
number of petroleum engineers. Ms. Reardon noted that the records
show a total of 89 petroleum engineers registered, and of that
number, 40 have provided out-of-state addresses. That leaves just
49 instate petroleum engineers.
REPRESENTATIVE BARNES further stated that in a letter from
Assistant Attorney General Robert Mintz he indicated there were 579
petroleum engineers employed within the state of Alaska in 1996,
the most recent year from which data are available. In both cases,
it is unknown whether the individuals listed as petroleum engineers
would actually qualify for the commission under the proposed bill.
Mr. Mintz also pointed out that the number is not a reliable
estimate for determining who would qualify under the proposal.
REPRESENTATIVE BARNES further stated that Dave Johnston, the
petroleum geologist on the commission now, explained that the term
"petroleum engineer" is an imprecise definition. No one can
statistically answer how many petroleum engineers there are or how
many there are in each category or speciality, such as subsurface.
Mr. Johnston felt that to obtain an accurate count most likely
would require examining each individual and in whatever file is
used. Yet, he does not think that it will change the numbers
greatly. He also pointed out that the way to improve HB 274 is to
change the word "or" to "and" under 2(A). Others, however, have
indicated that such a change is unnecessary to redundant. He also
suggested making licensure a goal rather than a requirement. There
are many well-qualified engineers without licenses, although it is
not difficult to obtain.
Number 165
REPRESENTATIVE BARNES noted that there is a proposed committee
substitute for HB 274, version 0-LS0998\Q, Glover, 4/28/98.
REPRESENTATIVE BARNES explained the following language in Section
1 has been deleted:
"Before making an appointment, the governor may solicit
the recommendations of professional or industry
representatives for appointment of a commissioner."
REPRESENTATIVE BARNES stated it is unnecessary to include verbiage
allowing a governor to seek council with professional or industry
representatives when he already has that power.
REPRESENTATIVE BARNES further explained that the previous Section
2 is now Section 1. On page 2, line 7, the language "and the
person completes university or industry training" has been added.
It was added with the intent of increasing the quality of the pools
from which candidates are drawn for the commission.
Number 196
CO-CHAIRMAN OGAN asked Representative Barnes which proposed
committee substitute is the new one.
REPRESENTATIVE BARNES replied version "Q."
Number 0208
CO-CHAIRMAN BILL HUDSON asked Representative Barnes whether she has
taken the proposed committee substitute and put it into the "Q"
version.
REPRESENTATIVE BARNES replied the "Q" version is the new proposed
committee substitute from the subcommittee.
Number 215
REPRESENTATIVE BARNES made a motion and asked unanimous consent to
adopt the proposed committee substitute for HB 274, version 0-
LS0998\Q, Glover, 4/28/98. There being no objection, it was so
adopted.
CO-CHAIRMAN OGAN asked Representative Barnes to explain the changes
to the committee substitute again.
REPRESENTATIVE BARNES explained the following language in Section
1 has been deleted:
"Before making an appointment, the governor may solicit
the recommendations of professional or industry
representatives for appointment of a commissioner."
REPRESENTATIVE BARNES further explained on page 2, line 12, of
version "P", the language "including and completing course work"
has been deleted and the language "and the person completes
university or industry training" has been inserted.
REPRESENTATIVE JOE GREEN noted his appreciation of the work that
the subcommittee members have done. The bill is better. The only
reason for the provision in Section 1, which has been removed, was
to jab at the Governor. He has maintained steadfastly that there
aren't qualified individuals causing him to go out of the realm of
what is necessary for the job. For two years now he has nominated
people who are obviously not qualified.
Number 265
CO-CHAIRMAN HUDSON made a motion to move the proposed committee
substitute for HB 274, version 0-LS0998/Q, Glover, 4/28/98, out of
the committee with individual recommendations and the attached zero
fiscal note.
Number 273
REPRESENTATIVE IRENE NICHOLIA asked Representative Barnes whether
the "Q" version would still restrict the pool to 25 persons.
REPRESENTATIVE BARNES replied it would not restrict the pool to 25
persons, according to the research. There are a lot of individuals
who do not show up on the registers, but who work for oil
companies. There is probably a pool of over 500.
CO-CHAIRMAN OGAN noted that there being no objection to the motion,
CSHB 274(RES) was so moved from the House Resources Standing
Committee.
HCR 13 - MANAGEMENT OF WILDLIFE RESOURCES
CO-CHAIRMAN OGAN announced the next order of business was HCR 13,
Relating to management of Alaska's wildlife resources.
CO-CHAIRMAN OGAN noted that there is a proposed committee
substitute, version 0-LS1771\E, Utermohle, 4/22/98, and an
amendment. He entertained a motion to adopt the proposed committee
substitute.
Number 299
REPRESENTATIVE BARNES made a motion and asked unanimous consent to
adopt the proposed committee substitute for HCR 13, version 0-
LS1771\E, Utermohle, 4/22/98.
Number 300
REPRESENTATIVE NICHOLIA asked whether the Department of Law is
available.
CO-CHAIRMAN OGAN stated the department was invited.
CO-CHAIRMAN HUDSON stated the department decided not to show up and
reminded the committee members that a motion is on the table.
Number 365
REPRESENTATIVE NICHOLIA objected to the motion. A roll call vote
was taken. Representatives Barnes, Dyson, Masek, Williams, Hudson
and Ogan voted in favor of the motion. Representative Nicholia
voted against the motion. Representatives Green and Joule were
absent. The motion carried.
CO-CHAIRMAN OGAN explained when Alaska became a state it was given
the right to navigable waters based on the equal footing doctrine
specifically addressed in the Alaska Statehood Act. Navigable
waters were transferred to the states in 1953 under the Submerged
Lands Act. On page 2, line 25 of the resolution, the citation to
the court case was not included because it has not been recorded
yet. It is that recent of a case. It is interesting to note that
Justice Sandra Day O'Connor in writing the opinion of the United
States Supreme Court for United States v. Alaska (___U.S.___(1997))
said, "Ownership of submerged lands -- which carries with it the
power to control ... fishing, and other public uses of water -- is
an essential attribute of sovereignty ..." He wants to establish
via the resolution to the Secretary of Interior that the federal
government does not have the right to manage fisheries in navigable
waters.
CO-CHAIRMAN OGAN made a motion to adopt Amendment 1. It reads as
follows:
TO: CSHCR 13(RES)
Page 3, line 3
Insert "WHEREAS is it the position of
the Alaska State Legislature
that ANILCA did not
specifically preempt state
management nor grant specific
authority to the Secretaries of
Agriculture and Interior to
preempt state management of
navigable waters and submerged
lands."
Page 3, line 9
Insert "FURTHER RESOLVED the Alaska
State Legislature respectfully
requests the U.S. Congress to
promptly clarify that ANILCA
did not preempt nor diminish
state sovereign authorities
over its own lands, waters and
resources."
REPRESENTATIVE NICHOLIA objected.
REPRESENTATIVE BILL WILLIAMS asked how would the Katie John case
affect the resolution. Didn't it go all the way to the Supreme
Court of the United States? he asked.
CO-CHAIRMAN OGAN replied the Katie John case went all the way to
the Ninth Circuit Court of Appeals. The appeal to the Supreme
Court of the United States was denied.
REPRESENTATIVE WILLIAMS asked: What is the resolution trying to
do? Is it trying to show that the Supreme Court is wrong? The
Supreme Court didn't want to hear the Katie John case because there
wasn't enough justification. The attorneys indicated that if the
Supreme Court didn't want to hear the Venetie case then it is the
supreme law of the land. The Supreme Court has already indicated
that it doesn't want to hear something similar to what the
resolution is asking. What are we doing? he asked.
CO-CHAIRMAN OGAN replied the resolution asks Congress to clarify
that the Alaska National Interest Lands Conservation Act (ANILCA)
did not preempt a state's sovereign authority over its lands and
waters. Alaska was clearly given the right to manage its own
navigable waters when it became a state.
REPRESENTATIVE WILLIAMS replied Alaska was also given the right on
the 90-10 split. What happened to that? he asked. It did the same
thing that is being discussed now. The federal government can come
in anytime it wants and do anything it wants. Just like the state
government can go onto state property and do and say anything it
wants. He doesn't see the rationale for the resolution. He would
like to hear from the Department of Law or the legislature's
attorneys. "We always go about saying that we're all not
attorneys, but we try to act like it ... some of us," he declared.
REPRESENTATIVE BARNES stated she doesn't believe a word that the
attorney general says. Just because the Supreme Court did not hear
the Katie John case and the 90-10 split doesn't mean that it would
not hear them at another time under a different set of facts. In
addition, Katie John would only be law under the Ninth Circuit
Court of Appeals. It would not be law anywhere else in the
country.
REPRESENTATIVE WILLIAMS stated, according to what he has been told,
if the Supreme Court didn't want to hear the Venetie case, it would
be considered the law of the land. Therefore, is Katie John the
law now? he asked.
REPRESENTATIVE BARNES replied, "No it is not."
REPRESENTATIVE WILLIAMS replied he thinks it is. "I don't think we
can't just pick and choose anything that we want, Mr. Chairman."
CO-CHAIRMAN OGAN stated he has heard Representative Williams say
many times that he doesn't want the federal government to manage
the state's resources. The resolution is asking Congress to
clarify that ANILCA did not intend for a takeover of fish and game,
especially navigable waters. He paraphrased the provisions in the
resolution.
REPRESENTATIVE WILLIAMS stated he could argue any of the cases
mentioned in the resolution. Katie John was taken to the Supreme
Court, but not heard, so it doesn't mean anything, according to
Representative Barnes. Therefore, why wasn't Katie John put in the
resolution to give it more credence? he asked.
CO-CHAIRMAN OGAN stated Representative Williams can make a motion
for an amendment at anytime.
REPRESENTATIVE WILLIAMS replied he believes that Katie John is the
law of the land because it went to the Supreme Court.
CO-CHAIRMAN OGAN replied it wasn't decided by the Supreme Court.
The conversation is way off track. The amendment asks that ANILCA
did not specifically preempt Alaska's sovereign authority over its
lands.
REPRESENTATIVE WILLIAMS replied he is not out of order. Katie John
specifically talks about submerged lands.
CO-CHAIRMAN OGAN replied he didn't say that he was out of order.
REPRESENTATIVE BEVERLY MASEK noted Representative Barnes stated
clearly that Katie John has not really been addressed or resolved
by the courts. She supports the amendment. The language is
important to add to the resolution.
Number 503
CO-CHAIRMAN HUDSON wondered how the dialogue has moved away from
the original resolution, by Representative Al Vezey, of the
management of Alaska's wildlife resources to navigable waters. He
doesn't feel comfortable with it and doesn't believe there are the
votes to move it from the committee. He wants to hear from the
original sponsor of the resolution. He also wants to know where
the changes took place. Was this something that Co-Chairman Ogan
did independently? he asked.
CO-CHAIRMAN OGAN replied he asked the original sponsor and he did
not object to changing the resolution into what it is now. In
light of the shortness of the session, he took advantage of using
it as the vehicle for a resolution.
Number 526
REPRESENTATIVE NICHOLIA stated regardless of how it is put Katie
John is the law, which is why the state is in its predicament.
There is a deadline in front of the state. There is clear evidence
that it is the law.
Number 540
CO-CHAIRMAN OGAN replied the majority opinion of the court begged
for a legislative solution. The resolution is simply asking
Congress to clarify that ANILCA did not preempt a state's sovereign
authority. There are reams of case law in the Supreme Court of the
United States that back up the assertion. He believes, if the
state can get its day in court, that the Supreme Court would rule
in favor of it. Justice Sandra Day O'Connor isn't going to reverse
her opinion that submerged lands carry the power to control
fishing, he declared.
CO-CHAIRMAN OGAN noted at this time there isn't a quorum to take
further action on the bill.
REPRESENTATIVE NICHOLIA stated she thinks that Congress has
clarified its position on a number of times. According to Alaska's
congressional delegation, the Katie John case is in front of the
state and it needs to resolve the issue before the deadline. She
does not see Congress coming forth and clarifying the issue.
CO-CHAIRMAN OGAN replied he hears what Representative Nicholia is
saying.
CO-CHAIRMAN OGAN called for a brief at ease.
CO-CHAIRMAN OGAN called the meeting back to order and adjourned the
meeting to the call of the chair.
TAPE 98-54, SIDE A
Number 000
CO-CHAIRMAN OGAN called the House Resources Standing Committee
meeting back to order at 5:01 p.m. Members present at the call to
order were Representatives Ogan, Barnes, Dyson, Green and Masek.
CO-CHAIRMAN OGAN noted that there is a motion to adopt Amendment 1
on the table.
Number 010
CO-CHAIRMAN OGAN made a motion to amend Amendment 1 to include the
language ", resources therein" after the word "waters" to the
amended portion on Page 3, line 3. There being no objection, it
was so adopted.
CO-CHAIRMAN OGAN asked whether there is any objection to the motion
to adopt Amendment 1, as amended. There being no objection, it was
so adopted.
Number 024
REPRESENTATIVE BARNES made a motion and asked unanimous consent to
move the proposed committee substitute for HCR 13, version 0-
LS177\E, Utermohle, 4/22/98, as amended, from the committee with
individual recommendations and the attached zero fiscal note.
There being no objection, CSHCR 13(RES) was so moved from the House
Resources Standing Committee.
CSSB 262(RES) - MANAGEMENT OF HUNTING
CO-CHAIRMAN OGAN announced the next order of business was CS for SB
262(RES), "An Act relating to regulation of hunting and trapping,
to the definition of 'sustained yield,' and to controlled use
areas."
CO-CHAIRMAN OGAN explained that the House proposed committee
substitute for the CS for SB 262(RES) has been adopted.
Number 042
REPRESENTATIVE BARNES made a motion to move the House proposed
committee substitute for CS for SB 262(RES) from the committee with
individual recommendations and the attached fiscal note(s). There
being no objection, HCS CSSB 262(RES) was so moved from the House
Resources Standing Committee.
ADJOURNMENT
Number 049
CO-CHAIRMAN OGAN adjourned the House Resources Standing Committee
meeting at 5:06 p.m.
| Document Name | Date/Time | Subjects |
|---|